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23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-imposed piety, humility, and severe treatment of the body, but they are of no value in checking self-indulgence. St. Paul (Ft. Laura Nasrallah) – Colossians 2 (NRSV)

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The “wisdom” or “sophia” of God is not found in abusing one’s flesh, like the Essenes might do.

“In Christ” are found the hidden treasures of “sophia.”

This “self-imposed piety” was railed about by Jesus at the Pharisees and hypocritical leaders in Matthew 6:16-18.

When you fast don’t make it obvious, as the hypocrites do, who try to look pale and disheveled.

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400

10 years

Jesus paid for our suffering by dying on the cross. To deliberately afflict the body as a display of religion is to say that his crucifixion and suffering is insufficient. It is almost a boasting of our good works. This is not to say that it is wrong to fast or to do things sacrificially but when we fast, we are not to boast about it; neither are we to believe that it enables us to attain salvation. All the good things we do are a fruit of God’s love and goodness. To focus on small details such as “do not touch or do not eat” is to go back to the deception of religion that salvation is based on good works.

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106

10 years

Paul also says somewhere – don’t trust too much in wisdom.

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245

10 years

I wonder if very rigid monastic orders read Paul often.

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602

10 years

This sounds a lot like the path Thecla had decided to follow. The writer seems to be very much against this lifestyle. I do not recall Paul ever supporting this lifestyle either. It is therefore interesting that the writer of the Acts of Paul and Thecla should wish to associate Paul with this type of behaviour.

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1,845

10 years

Ailsa: These regulations, devotion, self abasement and ascetism gave the appearance of religion but was it Christ’s way?

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587

10 years

As Paul pointed it out in the verse 23 this wisdom is false it is not synonymous to God wisdom.

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336

10 years

Vs. 23 appears to be a focal point for this section: how to tame self-indulgence. It relates back to our study of I Cor. In Chapter 13:1-3 and the sobering comments of our Lord at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Mat. 7:21-24.

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662

10 years

Not only are these things self-imposed, they are intended to impress others. “Look how pious I am. I’m a humble man, and proud of the fact. See how I fast and pray.”

Paul calls this self-indulgence.

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597

10 years

Which things have indeed a show of wisdom – All these prescriptions and rites have indeed the appearance of wisdom, and are recommended by plausible reasons; but they form a worship which God has not commanded, and enjoin macerations of the body, accompanied with a humiliation of spirit, that are neither profitable to the soul, nor of any advantage to the body; so that the whole of their religion is nothing worth.
(Clarke)

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1,255

10 years

Paul wrote Colossians together with Philemon, Timothy is associated with him as an author of them both. There are greetings in both from the same five people. Though Colossae was not far from Ephesus where Paul had worked for three year he had never visited the town.
The Eklisea of Colossae had probably been founded by Paphras who visited Paul during his imprisonment in Rome and gave him the good news of the city. One thing was causing both of them real concern, this was the spread of false teaching , it was the racial excluvism of the people like the Judaizers combined with the intellectual excluvism common in many pagan religious cults of the day.
We can see that what happened in Colossae is similar to that in Galatia for they were also wanting to impose Jewish rituals on the new converts. Actually there is some difference as here in Colossae the heretics were ‘ascetic’. They were not legalists like the Judaizers. Paul’s reply was clear, he deals not with the issue of law and grace but with the basic moral issues raised by all the ascetic practices.

Paul wrote Colossians together with Philemon, Timothy is associated with him as an author of them both. There are greetings in both from the same five people. Though Colossae was not far from Ephesus where Paul had worked for three year he had never visited the  town. 
The Eklisea of Colossae had probably been founded by Paphras who visited Paul during his imprisonment in Rome and gave him the good news of the city. One thing was causing both of them real concern, this was the spread of false teaching , it was the  racial excluvism of the people like the Judaizers combined with the intellectual excluvism common in many pagan religious cults of the day.
We can see that what happened in Colossae is similar to that in Galatia for they were also wanting  to impose Jewish rituals on the new converts. Actually there is some difference as here in Colossae the heretics were ‘ascetic’. They were not legalists like the Judaizers. Paul’s reply was clear, he deals not with the issue of law and grace but with the basic moral issues raised by all the  ascetic practices.

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15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it. St. Paul (Ft. Laura Nasrallah) – Colossians 2 (NRSV)

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10 years

It seems to me that Paul is writing more about what he WISHES were true instead of what actually was true. The Jesus written about in the gospels was NOT “the head of every ruler and authority” nor did he “disarm the rulers and authorities and make a public example of them, triumphing over them in it.”.

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1,083

10 years

also a confirmation of Daniels Prophecy about the kingdom form not by man.Daniel 2:44 God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed nor will it be left to another people. Christianity belong to all People, unlike Judaism that belong to the Jew(a certain people)

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1,005

10 years

This is referring to the resurrection of Christ and his ascension to heaven. This is victory over death and over the rulers and authorities at the time who no longer have power and authority over him. A signification that the authority belongs to Christ.

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14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. St. Paul (Ft. Laura Nasrallah) – Colossians 2 (NRSV)

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269

10 years

nailing to the cross, is a wonderful way of reminding us how Christ died for our sins.

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522

10 years

Shades of Martin Luther?

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368

10 years

The elaborate metaphor here about how God canceled the legal claims against us through Christ’s cross depicts not Christ being nailed to the cross by men but the bond…with its legal claims being nailed to the cross by God.

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1,848

10 years

Bought with a price

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8 For once you were darkness, but now in the Lord you are light. Live as children of light—

9 for the fruit of the light is found in all that is good and right and true. St. Paul (Ft. Laura Nasrallah) – Ephesians 5 (NRSV)

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An example of the light from the Lord is found in Psalm 18:28.

You, LORD, keep my lamp burning; my God turns my darkness into light.

At one time you were without wisdom and knowledge of the truth, but now you know the truth and have that wisdom because of the good news of Christ and the salvation He brings.

This chapter deals with the way the living are seen as “children of light.” Paul starts a extended light/dark metaphor (lines 8 through 14) in a comparison of life before and after accepting Christ.

Here Paul exhorts believers that the Lord’s death on the cross was a testimony to them that light has come in the presence of the Lord.The Lord’s presence was and is therefore a symbol for believers to emulate in living a life of light to others.

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8 years

the fruit of the spirit

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For how credible would it seem, that he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! "Let them be silent," he says, "and at home consult their own husbands." Tertullian (Ft. Laura Nasrallah & Rev. S. Thelwall) – On Baptism (Chap. XVII: Of the Power of Conferring Baptism)

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This discussion demonstrates that the letters of Paul were considered controversial and sometimes apparently contradictory even in the early stages of ecclesiastic history.

It has been a controversy since the 1st century whether a woman would be authorized to teach and baptize. Many of today’s congregations are still opposed to the doctrine that women are authorized to baptize, hence they have such power because they are ordained into the ministry.

Women in the ministry as ordained has become a matter of institutional framework, because there are those that do not ordain women into the ministry. These institutions just authorize women to the a part to the ministry without being ordained.

This text shows that woman during that time period did not have the same authority as men, as we read in Aristotle’s account as well. Paul seems to think differently about women. 1 Cor 11:5 : Paul allows women to pray and prophesy in the church.

The pseudonymous 1 Timothy, written 40-60 years after Paul’s death in his name, seems to contradict Paul’s view in 1 Corinthians 11:5, and shows the on ongoing debate in the 2nd century. “Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

The suspected latter addition to 1 Corinthians verses 14:34-35 also seems to contradict verses 11:5 “Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.” ()

ACCEPTED COMMENT: Ironic that Tertullian’s argument turns on the appeal to the more credible of two ways to look at the issue. This is the same man, after all,speaking of Christianity, said “I believe because it is absurd.” Centuries earlier Socrates had pointed out the following, that once made equal to man, woman immediately becomes his superior. Men in the early Church seem to be operating from a position of deep insecurity vis-a-vis women, an insecurity which survives to this day in groups such as Promise Keepers, Catholic Church, many Protestant Denominations and cultic Churches of Christ.

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This discussion demonstrates that the letters of Paul were considered controversial and sometimes apparently contradictory even in the early stages of ecclesiastic history.

It has been a controversy since the 1st century whether a woman would be authorized to teach and baptize. Many of today's congregations are still opposed to the doctrine that women are authorized to baptize, hence they have such power because they are ordained into the ministry.

Women in the ministry as ordained has become a matter of institutional framework, because there are those that do not ordain women into the ministry.  These institutions just authorize women to the a part to the ministry without being ordained.

This text shows that woman during that time period did not have the same authority as men, as we read in Aristotle's account as well. Paul seems to think differently about women. 1 Cor 11:5 : Paul allows women to pray and prophesy in the church.

The pseudonymous 1 Timothy, written 40-60 years after Paul's death in his name, seems to contradict Paul's view in 1 Corinthians 11:5, and shows the on ongoing debate in the 2nd century.  "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

The suspected latter addition to 1 Corinthians verses 14:34-35 also seems to contradict verses 11:5 "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church." ()

ACCEPTED COMMENT: Ironic that Tertullian's argument turns on the appeal to the more credible of two ways to look at the issue.  This is the same man, after all,speaking of Christianity, said "I believe because it is absurd."  Centuries earlier Socrates had pointed out the following, that once made equal to man, woman immediately becomes his superior.  Men in the  early Church seem to be operating from a position of deep insecurity vis-a-vis women, an insecurity which survives to this day in groups such as Promise Keepers, Catholic Church, many Protestant Denominations and cultic Churches of Christ.

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8 years

good comments here with things that should be stated

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155

10 years

God is giver of all the gifts. The argument of Tertullian was miscued and perhaps ill informed of ways of the Most High God

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10 years

Outside of the early Christian community and up through writers like Tertullian, the culture of the Greco-Roman world seemed similarly conflicted in their acceptance of women in leadership roles of any kind. The link shared in Day 11 (Remonia) regarding the historical depiction of the 3 women benefactors of ancient Perge is remarkable and gives a very good description of the circumstances these women lived under. The story of Regilla, wife of a powerful Roman proconsul is especially compelling and demonstrates the risks woman in antiquity took on to stand out and be noticed.

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168

10 years

Paul’s letters were subject of intense debate among the early christian communities. Some seemed to use the letters in contradictory ways, generating controversy and dispute.

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160

10 years

Is like Tertullian is over reacting with Thecla´s participation.

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178

10 years

Hmm, I was enjoying the story of Thecla up until now. Why this constant feminism concern related to Paul’s letters? Alright, yes it is relevant up to a point. But come on guys…

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144

10 years

@mjb881, actually, “Peter” means more “small rock or pebble” and we know from scripture that Jesus is the “rock” or mountain cut out without human hands. (Daniel 2)

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226

10 years

I am curious, though Tertullian is writing at least 100 years after Paul he only quotes from First Corinthians. Maybe he only used this letter because it supports his point of view. Though the strength of Paul’s letter includes women in all aspects of ministry and leadership in the ekklesia, Tertullian missed this because he wanted to make a point concerning gender and ministry.

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214

10 years

As we move towards the end of the readings for this course, I am struck time and time again that the early church may have been divided in some of its teachings but was definitely relaxed about a lot of others. The place of women seems to be one of them, and it is only later that the patriarchs of the 12th and 13th century began to subject women and place them in more ‘nurturing’ roles, leaving the ‘thinking’ roles to the men. Some would see the term ‘nurturing’ as synonymous with subservient, and that is a valid view, others would see this role as the natural role of women, not because these roles were inferior, but because the greater emotional intelligence of the women made them better able to deliver the role than men. This is also a valid view. The ‘right’ interpretation therefore appears to depend not so much on the role per se or the interpretation of the instructions included in Paul and preudo Pauline texts, but the viewpoint and position of the reader.

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548

10 years

According to Tertullian, it would have been obvious to those familiar with Paul to know when he was truly writing. Centuries later, are we too easily equating certain writings with Paul when we should know they were not really penned by him?

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1,845

10 years

Ailsa: Women in the NT clearly had a teaching and helping ministry. But in Tertullian’s area and by his time it seems that women were being excluded from these roles.

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139

10 years

mjb881 - I would not say Jesus was insecure about women, but who’s to say the apostles weren’t…they were insecure among themselves as they argued who among them was the greatest. There seems to be some conflict between Peter and Paul, so it wouldn’t surprise me if there was some insecurity or conflict over women “speaking” given the cultural context they were living in.

Just because Jesus incarnated as a male and did not “appoint” a female, that does not mean he is against women preaching or speaking. If that were the case why are there gospel accounts that say Jesus revealed himself first to women??? Don’t you think those women might go and “speak” about that! Jesus didn’t appoint any females, but did Jesus say DON’T appoint females???

Also the example of Deborah, the prophetess and judge in the OT, comes to mind. God used her in a powerful way…in a powerful role dominated by men, but now Jesus is not going to use women in a powerful way…in a powerful role dominated by men…to teach, to lead??? Hmmmm that’s a stretch for me to believe.

You are right that we have no right to usurp what God has established, and I would go back to an example like Deborah. It seems to me God wanted her to serve in a role that was more than just doing the childcare in the back of the church or maybe serving up some yummy coffee in hospitality room. Some NT/CT writers seem to usurp God’s idea of using women in a powerful way just a little bit.

mjb881  -  I would not say Jesus was insecure about women, but who's to say the apostles weren't...they were insecure among themselves as they argued who among them was the greatest.  There seems to be some conflict between Peter and Paul, so it wouldn't surprise me if there was some insecurity or conflict over women "speaking" given the cultural context they were living in.

Just because Jesus incarnated as a male and did not "appoint" a female, that does not mean he is against women preaching or speaking.  If that were the case why are there gospel accounts that say Jesus revealed himself first to women???  Don't you think those women might go and "speak" about that!  Jesus didn't appoint any females, but did Jesus say DON'T appoint females???

Also the example of Deborah, the prophetess and judge in the OT, comes to mind.  God used her in a powerful way...in a powerful role dominated by men, but now Jesus is not going to use women in a powerful way...in a powerful role dominated by men...to teach, to lead??? Hmmmm that's a stretch for me to believe.

You are right that we have no right to usurp what God has established, and I would go back to an example like Deborah.  It seems to me God wanted her to serve in a role that was more than just doing the childcare in the back of the church or maybe serving up some yummy coffee in hospitality room.  Some NT/CT writers seem to usurp God's idea of using women in a powerful way just a little bit.

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858

10 years

Shat……….would you say Jesus was insecure about women ?
Is he not God ?
Did he not incarnate as a male ?
In no place does Jesus appoint a female, thus how on earth could a bishop appoint one now. .
We have no right to usurp what God has established, no matter what we “think”, reason can understand revelation…it can not change it
Obviously many doctors of the church are women, etc,
Peter, not Mary, led the first generation by his authority as the pope, the rock
…..the facts as they are may seem unfair to us, but they exist nonetheless

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974

10 years

Tertullian is referring to the Apostle Paul and is making it quite clear that the Apostle Paul’s teaching was clear and the baptismal ordinance was performed in a specific manner by men. According to Porter-Fewster’s Paul and Pseudepigraphy, Tertullian sees the Acts of Paul and Thecla as a Christian novel with doctrinal incongruousness which mixes up traditions of the day such as women carrying out the baptismal ordinance.

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202

10 years

this is the only fruit that could come from Paul' poltroonim. he writes out of both ends of the pen and people take what they want to further their ends.

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324

10 years

This is controversial to what Paul taught on woman.

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124

10 years

He clearly has not read all the letters of Paul and used the part who secured him in his position (His canon).

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1,255

10 years

Paul’s personal opinion towards women is quite apparent when he advised people to stay unmarried. I think this is a very personal attitude and we should not take it forever like breaking the bread or celebrating the pentecost.
It is not right to follow every word he mentioned as if it is the word of God. We already saw Jesus views towards the Msaic Laws and how they were considered unfit.

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145

10 years

According to the webpage: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0321.htm
“But if the writings which wrongly go under Paul’s name, claim Thecla’s example as a licence for women’s teaching and baptizing, let them know that, in Asia, the presbyter who composed that writing, as if he were augmenting Paul’s fame from his own store, after being convicted, and confessing that he had done it from love of Paul, was removed from his office. For how credible would it seem, that he who has not permitted a woman even to learn with over-boldness, should give a female the power of teaching and of baptizing! "Let them be silent,” he says, “and at home consult their own husbands.” 1 Corinthians 14:34-35"

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975

10 years

Would it be reasonable to think that these regulations would not have been formulated if everything had been running smoothly, and if so, what picture might this give us of what was actually happening in the ekklesia at the time?

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The word of the Lord ought not to be hidden by any: in like manner, too, baptism, which is equally God's property, can be administered by all. Tertullian (Ft. Laura Nasrallah & Rev. S. Thelwall) – On Baptism (Chap. XVII: Of the Power of Conferring Baptism)

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JAccording to Tertullian’s writting baptism can be administered by all. What are some of the different interpretations by the different Christian traditions today?

Sacraments are ‘holy things’ and not necessarily enjoined to be performed by those in holy orders or under special certification. In the Protestant tradition, for the most part, it is only Baptism and the Lord’s Supper (Communion, Eucharist) that are considered sacraments. The rationale for this is that they were either practiced or commanded by Christ.
John the Baptist only had credentials from God. Jesus command about Communion was simply that all should do it in remembrance of Him. I find no problem in what is suggested here.
In the Roman Catholic confession, when the priest is baptizing the infant (or the child or the adult) he adresses her/him as ‘priest, prophet and king’ as an image of Jesus Christ, which is a cristologic formula called ‘tria munera Christi’ (the three offices and gifts – both meanings – of Christ) never found together in the works of the theologians and Fathers of the Church, but introduced much later by the reformer Jean Calvin and adopted by Lutherians and Catholics.
Various Christian groups have divided themselves into a hierarchy of clergy which is separate from laity and having special duties (like baptism) that only they can do as a priest or minister.
God’s Word in the Bible says all believers have direct access to God without the need for an intermediary priest. In fact we are now all called priests…
“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.” (1 Peter 2:9)
“To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:5-6)

ACCEPTED COMMENT: Ailsa: There was some fear that laymen may assume the function of bishop. A true observation that “emulations of episcopal office is the mother of schisms.” It didn’t take long for power to corrupt.

ACCEPTED COMMENT: We also have to recognize that there are some branches of the Christian church today who do not practice baptism but believe in the “sacramental life”. The sacraments being an outward sign of an inner experience it begs to determine whether baptism is truly a mandate for inclusion in the ekklesia. There are countless NT examples of people who experienced a saving grace through faith and there is no record of them being baptized.

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JAccording to Tertullian's writting baptism can be administered by all. What are some of the different interpretations by the different Christian traditions today?

- Sacraments are 'holy things' and not necessarily enjoined to be performed by those in holy orders or under special certification. In the Protestant tradition, for the most part, it is only Baptism and the Lord's Supper (Communion, Eucharist) that are considered sacraments. The rationale for this is that they were either practiced or commanded by Christ.
John the Baptist only had credentials from God. Jesus command about Communion was simply that all should do it in remembrance of Him. I find no problem in what is suggested here.

- In the Roman Catholic confession, when the priest is baptizing the infant (or the child or the adult) he adresses her/him as 'priest, prophet and king' as an image of Jesus Christ, which is a cristologic formula called 'tria munera Christi' (the three offices and gifts - both meanings - of Christ) never found together in the works of the theologians and Fathers of the Church, but introduced much later by the reformer Jean Calvin and adopted by Lutherians and Catholics.

- Various Christian groups have divided themselves into a hierarchy of clergy which is separate from laity and having special duties (like baptism) that only they can do as a priest or minister.
God's Word in the Bible says all believers have direct access to God without the need for an intermediary priest.  In fact we are now all called priests...
"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
"To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood, and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen." (Revelation 1:5-6)

ACCEPTED COMMENT: Ailsa: There was some fear that laymen may assume the function of bishop. A true observation that "emulations of episcopal office is the mother of schisms." It didn't take long for power to corrupt.

ACCEPTED COMMENT: We also have to recognize that there are some branches of the Christian church today who do not practice baptism but believe in the "sacramental life".  The sacraments being an outward sign of an inner experience it begs to determine whether baptism is truly a mandate for inclusion in the ekklesia.  There are countless NT examples of people who experienced a saving grace through faith and there is no record of them being baptized.

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Jackie Manley

7 years

These are great comments. I would only say that in Matthew 3:15, Jesus tells John he must baptize the Saviour “for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” (Orthodox Study Bible, NKJ). Christ was conforming to Jewish traditions as an example to us of following God’s pattern for worship.

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487

10 years

Believer’s baptism is taught in the New Testament as being a symbol or a picture of what has happened in the life of the person who by faith has believed in Jesus Christ and been saved by His grace. It is an illustration of what that has taken place in the new believer’s heart which cannot be outwardly observed when a person is saved. Baptism is further a testimony by which the new Christian gives public testimony that they have believed in Jesus Christ and have been born again. Through baptism the new convert is joining, identifying themselves as Christians, and becoming a member of a local New Testament church. There are several aspects of baptism:

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857

10 years

Baptism is from God, not man.

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266

10 years

Hierarchies are man-made and not of God!

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on account of the honour of the Church, which being preserved, peace is preserved. Tertullian (Ft. Laura Nasrallah & Rev. S. Thelwall) – On Baptism (Chap. XVII: Of the Power of Conferring Baptism)

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Tertullianus writes that no action should be without the bishop’s authority, so as to preserve the peace in the church (the members and those in authority).If we keep the divisions from pulling the church apart it will preserve the peace .in turn honouring the church as a whole .everone is a part of the church and serve a purpose

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in the next place, the presbyters and deacons, yet not without the bishop's authority, Tertullian (Ft. Laura Nasrallah & Rev. S. Thelwall) – On Baptism (Chap. XVII: Of the Power of Conferring Baptism)

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In earlier letters there is a call for unity. There is a line of Authority within the ekklesia, that is, the Bishop, the presbyters then deacons even to the elder in order of decreasing authority.

ACCEPTED COMMENT: Bishops, presbyters and deacons, are the three sacred orders in the Catholic Church.

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858

10 years

Awwww! Sorry I did not mean to have above post capitalized ,,,, blame my I pad. ,!
The I pad, not the devil, made me do it, I swear !! :)

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